Dr Nicholas Dodman, Veterinarian; An Expert s Perspective on Devocalization Recently, on behalf of ISAR s Stop Devocalization Now Project, Susan Dapsis interviewed Professor Nicholas Dodman, Director of the Animal Behavior Clinic at Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine, Tufts University. Dr. Dodman is a world renowned animal behaviorist, and the bestselling author of the immensely popular books The Dog Who Loved Too Much, The Cat Who Cried for Help, and most recently The Well Adjusted Dog. He has appeared frequently on leading television shows, including Oprah, The Today Show, Good Morning America, 20/20 and CNN. *** ISAR: Since our interview today is about the subject of devocalization, I d like to begin by asking you exactly what that is. ND: It's a surgical procedure by which the vocal chords, one or sometimes both, are removed from the voice box so that the dog or cat cannot phonate. And that is they cannot make a sound. At least they can't make their primary sound, which for a dog would be barking, a cat would be meowing. But they do make a kind of huffing noise. They can still force air through their larynx, but it's not the normal voice. ISAR: Is devocalization performed only on dogs and cats? Is it performed more often on dogs rather than cats, or cats rather than dogs? ND: I would say -- first of all, it would be unusual to perform it on any other species, and including humans, unless of course there was something like cancer of the throat or something, in which case they'd probably remove the entire voice box, not just the vocal chords. So really it's a dog/cat procedure, and it's performed much more frequently in dogs, and almost never in cats, although I have encountered people who've had it done to their cat. ISAR: Is devocalization the same as debarking, or what we hear called bark softening in dogs and de-meowing in cats? ND: Yes. It's all the same really. Devocalization means taking away their voice. And you do that by interfering with the mechanism by which they produce sound. So a dog barks, so another name would be debarking. And a cat meows, so it would be sort of de-meowing. And some people might soften it a bit by saying bark softening or something like that, but it's all the same thing. It's surgically adjusting the sound that they make so that it's less noisy and less bothersome to people.
ISAR: Is devocalization surgery invasive, and is it painful? And is it always successful in terms of achieving its goal to silence a dog or a cat? ND: I believe it's a very painful procedure. I would think it's as least as painful as, for example, tonsillectomy in humans. And children who have tonsillectomies, which used to be much more popular in the old days than it is today, would wake up with an incredibly sore throat and would be put on an ice cream diet because nothing else could be tolerated to pass down the throat because it was so sore and inflamed. And sometimes there were complications. It's very similar to that. You're sometimes cutting out, sometimes burning out, vocal chords, sometimes lasering out vocal chords. And you're just leaving remnants, a sort of tattered scar of these vocal chords there in a very sensitive area, which is the throat. So is it painful? Yes. And is it mutilative, yes. ISAR: Is it always successful in terms of silencing the dog or cat? ND: Well success is a sort of relative term. And sometimes a surgeon might claim that he had completed the operation successfully and the dog would recover and instead of barking would make a sort of huffing sound. And then the surgeon would say that's good and so therefore, for the surgeon and for the owner, that is success, not counting what the dog experiences. The fact is that there are complications. Even if it is successful the first time around, there are complications down the road that the vocal chords can kind of, not exactly grow back in, but there's some kind of web of fibrous tissue can form so that sort of they can regain their voice down the road, and/or this web can obstruct breathing, and there can be post-op complications. So success is relative and complications are common. And sometimes a re-operation is necessary. Or, animals that aren't re-operated can sometimes succumb to either infections or respiratory failure or some such, as a result of the surgery. ISAR: Devocalization is sometimes referred to as a convenience surgery. Why is that? ND: Well because it's not for the benefit of the animal itself. There's no benefit for a dog in not being able to bark, or for a cat not being able to meow. It's really for the convenience of the person. It has absolutely nothing to do with the welfare of the animal. But, you know, the fact is dogs do bark. And the old saying is that if you don't like a dog that barks, get a cat. And cats do meow and scratch furniture. And if you don't like cats that scratch furniture you should get a dog. If you can't handle either of those things, then you perhaps shouldn't be owning a pet. ISAR: Why do dogs bark and cats meow? ND: Well that's a good question. And that's the question that people should ask, rather than just saying, you know, off with the chords, as a quick solution for
them, a convenience for them, they should be asking the question why is my dog barking. And they bark for a reason. And there are several different reasons. I mean sometimes they bark for attention. Sometimes they bark from loneliness and boredom, or frustration. Sometimes they bark for territorial reasons, a warning to people passing by, which territoriality is a natural instinct of dogs. Whatever the reason is, if you can figure out what it is the dog's barking about, then each one of those conditions, or situations, can be addressed. So if a dog is, you know, doesn't have a proper life and is barking for attention because otherwise he doesn't get any, then really you can give him a more healthy life, you know, plenty of exercise, the right diet, a clear communication, things to do, environmental enrichment and make him a real dog. And then he doesn't need to bark for attention because otherwise he gets none. You know separation anxiety has a whole long treatment program. And territorial issues can be addressed, sometimes logistically, just by denying access, or building fences, or shutting off rooms, or moving furniture. I mean all of these things can be addressed in ways that are non-surgical, but people are so impatient that they just want a quick fix. ISAR: Do you think people devocalize their pets to avoid training them? ND: I don't know that they know of the options that are open to them. I think that they maybe they have a headache because the dog's barking all day long, and so they go to the vet. And the vet who, in many instances, has received no behavioral training, will say -- you know, they might say I'm going to take you to a trainer. Or they might say well, you know, I can devocalize him, if you like. Just like they say for cats who scratch furniture, you know, a client says he's scratching the furniture, say would you like me to declaw him while I do the spay. And they just do it like at the drop of a hat. Because they don't have behavioral training, in many instances. And then if the dog was referred to a trainer, trainers can train dogs to do things, but not all of them are super good trainers and some of them use the wrong methods and they may not be successful. And then the owner goes back to the vet and says I went to the trainer that you advised, he's still barking. And then it's the second time around, okay, well then we'll have to resort to devocalization. ISAR: What physical, psychological and behavioral risks are devocalized animals likely to suffer? ND: That's a tough question to answer because we don't really know. I mean it is pathetic. I mean even people who don't know, like that cameraman who was here for a shoot a few days ago, said he was standing -- I think he was in Seattle, Washington -- and he said there was a dog standing on the sidewalk and it was just (huffing). And it's just like absolutely -- he was dumbfounded. As a nonveterinarian, you know non-animal aficionado person, and he just could not
believe what this was like. He said it was pathetic, it was just awful that the dog couldn't bark. Well, you know, you would imagine that it would be sort of frustrating for the dog to keep trying and not have any sound come out. But on the other hand, it's odd that some of the animals that bark, but most are completely deaf. You know, I've got a cat that's stone deaf and it vocalizes quite a lot of the time. It meows quite loud, sometimes in the morning and wakes me up. You would think well why would they make that sound if they can't hear themselves. But even if they can hear and they make the sound, and it's not the right sound, I mean what do they think about that? And I don't know that we can really answer those questions. I think what we can say is it's unnecessary, it's convenience surgery, it's painful, with a rough recovery, lots of complications are possible and do occur, reoperation is quite often needed, and some very serious complications, up to and including the death of the animal, and all for the owner's convenience. So all of these factors we know, the pain, the complications, the unnecessary nature of the surgery, but I don't know anyone could really attest to the psychological impact on the dog. ISAR: Are there humane behavioral alternatives to devocalization? ND: Well, like I said, if you find out what the dog is barking about, and you address it, it can be really quite simple. I mean here's a silly scenario, but it's true. One person, in Boston, was living in an apartment that was sort of semi subterranean. I mean it had a window looking onto the street. People go past. The dog would bark. And so she would yell, no. But she's yelling, and effectively the dog's yelling too, and they were both yelling or barking together. So the advice was simply just praise him. So the dog would bark, and the person would say good boy, thank you very much for telling me there's someone out there. Thank you. And the dog would shut up. Okay, they now understand. So just acknowledging the barking has a purpose, which I do all the time. I've got a dog who barks, and he barks for a reason. There's always a reason. And sometimes there's a deer in the back garden. And sometimes I don't care what the reason is, but he knows there's something out there and I always go to the window with him and say good boy, Rusty. What is it? Is it a squirrel? Is it a deer? And we go out together and he's interested and he's happy, and I look out there, I try and spot what he's seeing and sometimes I see it and sometimes I don't. And I say good boy, it's a rabbit. Wow, that's so clever of you. And he's so proud and he's quiet. Or I could be yelling at him and he keeps on barking and then I say oh, I've got a problem. And those are the kind of people that end up taking the dog to the vet for surgery. ISAR: So there are reasons dogs bark and cats meow.
ND: Yes, there's a reason. Sometimes, like my deaf cat, I know why this cat is vocalizing. It's because it's dawn, it's time everyone was up. It's the time when cats are most active. That's the cat's lifestyle. It's dawn and dusk activity level. Sun's up, he's going. At this time of the year, that's pretty early. And he starts to patrol the corridors and no one else is up, and he's hungry and he wants to be active and people are sleeping until 6:00 or 7:00 and he starts to meow. And he's kind of hoping that people will get up and start to take care of him and there's going to be a bit of action. So there's a reason there. It's just not one I can really adjust without getting really thick curtains and making the room very dark and using a little white noise. I could do that but it's not that bothersome for me. ISAR: And dogs, they could bark as a warning. It could be playful. It could be.... ND: Yes, there are reasons. It could be territorial, separation anxiety, attention seeking. I mean just probably -- I think probably, you know, aggression comes in different forms. You know, predatory aggression, a dog may bark if it sees a squirrel outside. There's a kind of predatory version. A dog could bark for territorial aggression reasons. A dog can bark for anxious reasons. Some dogs bark for fearful reasons, thunder for example. Some dogs bark at storms. Some dogs have a kind of compulsive barking where they've been tied out with nothing to do and they bark and it's kind of like it's barking at nothing, barking at the moon. It's just a repetitive monotonous tone that you sometimes hear on a Sunday afternoon. And it's really a sign of impaired welfare in the pet that it's been tied out for so long that it's just got into this repetitive thing. But all of those things, whatever is the original cause, all can be addressed behaviorally by a knowledgeable person. ISAR: Have you treated a devocalized animal? ND: I don't know that I have. I've certainly seen them. And I've seen the surgery done when I was learning years ago in Scotland. I was a resident in the department of surgery and anesthesia. And I've many times seen one of our surgeons, who I used to work with frequently as the anesthesiologist, I've seen him devocalize dogs. (I've seen him do laryngeal operations on horses too, but not to devocalize them.) So I've many times witnessed the procedure, and I've sort of seen the recovery. But I don't think anyone's brought me a dog, as a behavior problem case, that's been devocalized. ISAR: Among veterinarians, how does the behavioral field view devocalization? Is there a general view? ND: I'm pretty sure that no one in any of the erudite groups, I mean anyone who's actually ever studied animal behavior, and I would include the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists, and also those members of the Animal Behavior Society, particularly the credentialed ones, the certified applied animal
behaviorists who have a PhD oftentimes in behavior, plus five years of field experience. I would wager my bottom dollar that there isn't a person in there who would favor devocalization. That every single one of those two groups, the two most learned groups in the country, to a person, would oppose devocalization and applaud understanding and alternative approaches. ISAR: Some states and cities are enacting legislation that seeks to restrict devocalization surgery to cases where it is medically necessary to treat or relieve an illness or an injury. Do you support this legislation? ND: I do and I have. You know the state of Massachusetts, we've had devocalization banned. I lent my voice and words and quotes to that ban and luckily it went through, despite opposition from one group of people the people who have laboratory dogs. And they said they bark all the time and they give us a headache, and if we can't devocalize them, how can we do our work? Well, these dogs are barking for a reason too. I mean their lives are empty. They're not getting any exercise. They're stuck in a small cage. What else can they do? They can drink, eat and bark. And they're just taken out for a run to the bathroom. It's a real -- not a real dog's life, but it's a dog's life in a metaphorical sense. It's a terrible existence. And then they want to devocalize them for their own convenience. So we managed to block that second attempt to unseat the bill. But they didn't succeed and we did. Then I've gotten calls from New York State who also wants to -- a group there wants to ban devocalization. And they wanted to know if they could quote some of the things that I'd said on the Massachusetts ban and I said sure. So, you know, the more states that are brought in, the better it is as far as I'm concerned. ISAR: Why are many veterinarians, such as the Massachusetts Veterinary Medical Association opposed to legislation restricting devocalization? Are veterinarians in general? ND: I think part of it is that they don't want to be told what they can and they can't do. So it's a little bit of, you know, stick-in- the-mudness. They just say this is our turf, and how are non-animal people telling us what we could and we should and we can't do? So a little bit of the John Wayne thing going on there. But also, I think some of them -- you know, my experience of vets is that some of them actually have, for reasons of who knows what, a high level of empathy with their patients, and others don't. Others just see it sort of as a job. And you know, especially veterinary surgeons I would say. They're so used to being in a situation where a patient is immobile and you take a knife and you cut this and you cut that and then you sew them up and they go into recovery. And, you know, sort of -- I think you get sort of hardened after a while and just say, you know, I don't see what the problem is. But that's because you don't see the whole picture, you just see it through your little surgical window.
There's also, perhaps, even a business angle that this is a fee-paying procedure. A veterinarian may even think that perhaps, in some instances, he may be saving a life because a person could not live with this barking dog. If you don't know that something else can be done, you say what's the alternative, they'll put him down. So a veterinarian could think she doing it for the best reasons and making money at the same time. So, she could think, why would you want somebody to stop her? ISAR: As to dogs, or even cats for that matter, is there a genetic aspect to devocalization? ND: I think that we don't -- we didn't really mention the fact that some dogs bark for genetic reasons. And so it's a good reason to think seriously about a certain type of dog before you get it. Like for example, the terriers. Terriers were -- they had to bark because many of them were bred to chase small varmints. They were working dogs, farm dogs, hunting dogs. And they would, for example, go down a hole to sort of -- to find a badger or a fox of something of that nature. And when you go in headlong, you can often get stuck. And then when you're stuck down a hole, if you didn't bark so the people with you knew where you were to dig you out, you know you would die. So actually for terriers, barking had a survival reason. Shelties, there's another breed who are super reactive and tend to bark a lot. So if you get a headache with dogs barking, you probably shouldn't get a sheltie. Another one with a job is a keeshond. A keeshond is a barge guarding dog and they were bred to run up and down on the barge. And when people came near they would bark at them and that's their job. So if you get a keeshond and he barks, I mean that's hardly surprising. And then the ultimate of course is -- I could go on -- but the ultimate is the beagle and beagles bark for any or no reason. Beagles bark. That's what they do. And there's also learning that plays a role too. And some dogs will bark because it gets some positive result for them. The positive result could be that someone who's approaching stops approaching and goes the opposite direction. The approach could be that it barks when husband and wife are talking, that they stop talking, come over and do something to the dog, and any attention, you know, positive or negative, is better than no attention. And negative reinforcement is barking to make people go away. I guess that would be the true description of that kind of learning. You also have to understand that barking for dogs is a means of communication. And they will bark when they're separated from their pack, and sometimes when they're separated from their human pack, or a canine colleague. So these things
can be addressed. And it actually, it's almost a bit like a language too. And people who really understand their dogs actually feel that they can understand different types of barks. So they say well when there's a stranger coming down the drive, I can tell if I'm in another room. He's barking and that's a warning bark. But if my husband's coming home, he's barking and that's a friendly bark and it's more of a greeting. And sometimes it can be to get -- you know, if the ball goes under a couch, they could bark and say hey, come and get it out, it's over here. Or I'm over here, come and help me out. Or sometimes it can be come back, and sometimes stay away. So it's a kind of elemental language that we know dogs use. And to take that away from them, I don't think it's right. It's just a complete lack of understanding of the dog and what it means. So a lot of people who don't think about the dog they get, who don't think about the reasons for their dog's barking, it's just a knee jerk reaction, have devocalization. I just think that's a travesty. ISAR: I want you to know that ISAR is working on a model statute that any state could enact, to restrict vocalization in all but situations to save an animal s life. We're going to try to make it very easy to enact such a statute. ND: Nice. ISAR: We're going to work with everyone out there who wants to work with us on it. ND: Well that's great. It's a worthy goal. ISAR: This interview is going to be very enlightening for a lot of our supporters and a lot of people who've never even heard of devocalization. ND: I want to add just one postscript. I borrowed this from a trainer behaviorist friend of mine. And without even asking why a dog barks, he says, and I've been trying this recently in my clinic, I can't tell you that -- you know, I haven't really got really good feedback on it yet. I mean I'm not saying it's not working, but his take is that if you feed a dog only from a Kong, and if it's wet food you just pack it down in the bottom of the large size Kong. If it's dry food you have to spritz it to make it stick together, make it kind of the texture of oatmeal, and then pack it in the bottom of a large size Kong. And then you freeze it. If the dog's morning rations are frozen in a Kong, and it's put down on the floor and he's allowed to eat it, it's tricky to get out, but dogs are used to working for food, that's what they do in nature. It will take him an hour and a half to empty in the morning, and then he gets his evening meal the same way, an hour and a half to empty in the evening. During the process of working for his food, he lies down on his chest, his heart rate goes down, his blood pressure goes down, he puts his brain into gear. It has a kind of relaxing and calming effect, and supposedly barking is reduced over the entire 24-hour cycle by 90%.
ISAR: I guess you better explain what a Kong is. ND: A Kong is a hard rubber toy. Actually it was invented by a man who was fixing his motor bike, a long time ago, and the shock absorber on the rear wheel of the motor bike fell on the floor. And it's a kind of rubber thing that kind of -- you could look it up on the internet to see the shape of it -- but it's kind of like a cone, a rubber cone. Anyway, bouncing on the floor, his dog immediately grabbed it and started playing with it. And he said wow, that's cool, my dog thinks this is a terrific toy, I'm going to start selling it as a dog toy. So they come usually in red and black colors. And they are these hollow rubber toys. They've got a wide hole in one end and a smaller hole in the other end. And when you drop it on the ground, because of its odd shape, it bounces in all different directions. But it has this big cavity in the middle. A lot of people know that you can enrich a Kong by putting inside it a smear of peanut butter and freeze it, and that's like a dog peanut butter popsicle. But this is not just a treat, this is the entire ration is packed inside this thing. And then it's frozen so the dog has to work to clear it. He's got three hours when he's not barking because he's eating. But the calmness that that induces apparently washed over the entire 24-hour cycle. ISAR: And Kongs can be purchased in pet stores? ND: They are everywhere. You can get them in the supermarket. You can get them in any pet store. You can get them in PetSmart. You can get them on the internet. The Kong company is really big and the products are everywhere. ISAR: Wonderful. That was good information. ND: That's a postscript. ISAR: Yes, that's going to help a lot of people. ND: Well good luck, and keep up the good work with your work for animal rights. ISAR: Well, that s what ISAR is all about. ND: I totally agree with your mission. I think animals should have rights. I mean, I don't think they need the right to vote or go to church or anything like that, but they need to have their basic requirements in life met. And it should be a right and an obligation, that people should have to provide these basic things for them as their guardians. ISAR: That's what ISAR is working towards. ND: Keep it up.
ISAR: We will, and allies like you are a great inspiration.